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Protestant Pope Pastor Rick Warren

Resolved that there should be and continue to be a Loyalty Separation of Democratic Faith from Christian Faith.

The longer title would be: "Separation of the American Democratic Faith from the Faith of the Bible and Christ." It is much like the guiding principle of the New Testament that Christians are to be "in the world but not of the world". Paul first wrote a book saying "to separate yourself from adulterers"; but then had to explain that what was meant was to separate from adulterers in the church but not from adulterers in the world, then he said, "you would needs have to go out of the world."


Protestant Pope Pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Vatican of Orange County

Now Pastor Rick Warren has done it with the recent leadership of a Saddleback civic forum with the two presidential candidates, Obama and McCain. He has become captive to his own popularity, and that fame will take precedence over any of his Christian convictions. In a next day interview on Larry King Live, Warren made the statement that he does believe in one of the Baptist Distinctives of "Separation of Church and State"; then playing with words as he likes to do so often as in his play on the word "purpose" in PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE and PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH, where for the word purpose has been substituted for the words of Christian convictions and Bible of "Holy Spirit" driven or "Christ" driven, he stated that while he believes in the separation of church and state, he does not believe in the separation of "faith and politics." Warren is a master of the boomer practice of a compromise between functionality {a good example was the young soldiers of Warren’s generation in Vietnam that wore both "kill" and "peace" symbols--this may be some of the "common ground" thinking that he references}, that is what works, and convictions; and any time this is done, convictions lose. You take for example, the not too long ago vote of the Presbyterian Church as to whether they should stop claiming that "Christ is the only way of salvation" as it seems too intolerant. Just that attitude that could even bring it to a vote illustrates how Americans of the American Democratic Faith have come to allow the American Democratic concept of "tolerance" to dominate over Christian Convictions. You see, it is not the separation of Church and State, or Faith and Politics, that we have to worry about in America as it is the separation between the American Democratic Faith and the Faith of Christ and the Bible. Once the ideological battle is won of the American Democratic Faith’s domination, like in tolerance over conviction, over the Faith "once for all delivered to the saints" of the Bible and Christ, then the war is over; and all some Pope like in Rome or in Saddleback has to done is formalize an organization.

Far fetched for Warren to be a Protestant Pope. Well, at the susceptibility of playing with words like he does, it can easily be stated that in fame and ideology he is already there as many like Larry King like to refer to him as the new Billy Graham, for some reasons we will discuss momentarily. Recently a SBC convention pastor in order to find justification for his actions as he ostracized a long standing church member, with approximately 20 of his followers, from church membership in a large church of Alamogordo, New Mexico, because he and his followers objected to the departure from tradition in the church music, this same pastor sought approval before his action from Rick Warren because of his influence from the best-selling Purpose Driven books.

CNN, of course, is just riding the fame of Warren, and no doubt a little self-justification and equal time allowance for a Protestant Pope since we witnessed this unheard of lack of Separation of Church and State when they covered for days the religious services, including mass, and activities of the Roman Catholic Pope. While you may not immediately see in this a combining of Church with State, and on the part of a religious group, the Roman Catholic Church, that has a long standing history of church meddling in the State, surely you do see that the news media are more functions of State than of Church, traditionally and practically. {Surely in this day and time when the control of the administration in power over journalism, as Bill Moyer has tried to make clear in speeches and programs, you see how news is far more an arm of the State than of Church.} If nothing else, you know and I know that the prime subject matter that News agencies have trained us to become accustomed to is to deal with politics and both the domestic and international functions of government.

Granted these slick politicians--Warren, Obama, and McCain--tried to keep religion and politics separated in their discussions of "Evil" where Obama focused more on domestic crime and McCain like George Bush before, and which is a military man tendency, focused on evil as the personification of bad countries like Russia, North Korea, and Iran. What really happened in that forum was that Warren got pulled into a public allegiance, and all Christians to a certain extent with him, where the concept of evil became dominated by a State concept rather than a religious concept. Goodness, if any of the two should dominate on the subject of evil, it should be religion; and in particular when we as Christians and Baptists have for so long been devoted to outspoken allegiance to the Bible as the Word of God, at least before Warren and his fundamentalist group came along to take over 30 years ago the SBC, evil must be clearly identified as: (1) sin and lawlessness; (2) the heart within every human being, Christian or otherwise, that lusteth to envy, and which Pastor James in the Word of God identifies as the real source of all wars, disagreements in churches and denominations, etc; and (3) Satan, whom the Bible calls the "Evil One". Did you hear anything about "sin" and "Satan" in that church meeting of Saddleback with two representatives of the US State government present; and by the way dominating the trend of the conversation even as they became agents of politics dominating over faith, State over Church religion.

Warren and Joel Olsteen, also Beth Moore and Paula White, and others are no better than Jesus; and Satan comes to each of these religious leaders at the beginning of their careers to seek a worldly dominance of their faith. Satan says to each of them, "I will give you all these things of the world that you see--fame, fortune, status, and homes and lands, and comfort and riches--if you will fall down and worship me; and do not be confused on this matter that any dominate allegiance to the world and the politics of the established world {America or any other country}, simultaneously gives prime allegiance to Satan, the prince of this world, as dominant allegiance is given to the world. What Warren and these new religious leaders of America have done in their seeking of and finding of fame and fortune and popularity is to sell their souls to the company store, that is with a devotion to the established world of fame and fortune comes ideological and heart control from Satan and the ultimate in evil. However, it looks so much better than the evil on the streets and the killings by Russians in Georgia, that we hardly identify such devotion to the world--and remember as the Scripture and Jesus state "He that would be the friend of the world is the enemy of God"--as Evil. My goodness, we can hardly conceive of the concept that by allowing the American Democratic Faith to dominate over our Christian Faith that we have already violated the Separation of Church and State, that we have failed to practice the teaching of Jesus to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s". My, our concept of evil and the world, and "world view value system", to use some words and a concept from Warren, and Satan belong more to God than to the political world. In his play with the words and concept that every one, citizen or church member I would presume Warren means, has some "world view" and value system that goes with the world view; and no doubt has not stopped to think that this places a dominance of world politics over faith, exerting an influence on other Christians toward this loyalty to the State over loyalty to the faith of God, Christ, and the Bible!

How can Warren be labeled a Protestant Pope Pastor, for true that Baptist history has been in the main stream a protest to being called a Protestant, since they protested against nothing; but rather from direct and individual priesthood of the believers reading of the Bible, came to develop the Baptist Distinctives of: (1) the importance of the individual; (2) the Bible as the Word of God that can be individually understood by every Christian; (3) baptism by immersion as an example and representation of the immersion in the salvation of God; (4) the separation of church and state, and (5) the Bible is the sole criterion for faith and practice {fundamentalits like Warren would attempt to put the Bible and quotes from the Bible as an Appendage to an American Democratic Faith based on custom and tradtions, primarily the evolved customs and tradtions of Bible Baptists}. However, you need to know and appreciate more American Baptist and church history by the recognition that there are distinct differences between (1) evangelicals, (2) Southern Baptist, and (3) fundamentalists. While King in the promotion of "Pastor Rich Warren" remind us often of both his best selling books on purpose and how he is a fourth generation pastor, not knowing the warfare between the Baptist fundamentalists and Southern Baptist. Goodness, you are excused as most church members have never know the differences, without any study of the good books on Baptist History or History of the Southern Baptist Convention. The fundamentalists, most generally called Bible Baptists, the most famous leader of which was the recently departed Jerry Falwell, split off from the Southern Baptist Convention, once the largest Protestant denomination in the world under the downward trend of the last 20 years as the fundamentalists took control of the convention. Besides the splitting off of two other major conventions, there has seen that big happening been continuous warfare between "moderates" and "fundamentalists" like between the new fundamentalists convention leaders and State conventions like in Texas, like between Baylor and Southwestern Seminary. Like W. A. Criswell, with support from Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley, told Bill Moyer on TV, "we will keep fighting until one side or the other wins." Real southern baptists by and large refused to fight, dominated by the Christian spirit of love and moderation, while the fundamentalists under the leadership of those three Pope Pastors, all three of which never came from a SBC background in the first place but were called to large SBC churches as the reading level of American dropped from the sixth to the third grade level, the fundamentalists taking political control. {They still do not have ideological control as demonstrated by the continued warfare, and as many real southern baptists have never awakened to this historical happening.}

Expanding our horizon to an honest look at early church history, the manner in which the first New Testament churches degenerated into a man-made organization called the Roman Catholic Church, the most outstanding example in history of the opposite of Church and Sate--and by the way, one of the major reasons for the foundation of this country as thousands flocked to the new country to gain religious freedom from the tyranny of Church over State--was when the pastor, the NT word of "bishop" had preference then, of the church at Rome assumed a larger status than the pastor of a local church which is the way it was in the New Testament, and still is. {You will find only 3 words in the NT for the title of the leader of the local church, pastor, elder, and bishop--all the same--and with clear definitions of those limited local functions.} Yes, the bishop at Rome assumed the title Pope and then was able to exert enough influence on the other churches to make it acceptable to them. Of course, just like today throughout the Roman Empire there were many churches who did not accept that man-made position, just many real southern baptists do not accept today these protestant popes of the fundamentalists movement. {By the way this current mess of a combination of a Vatican which is an independent State also being a Church or denominational organization is not a practice or example that we wish to see dominate in the United States, even as with the Church of England where the Queen is the official head. Let us not give up our independence of July 4, gained physically when Puritans and Pilgrims came to this country or our intellectual independence gained by Emerson and others during the Romantic Period, although sometimes men like Warren and the late Jerry FAlwell would have used the flag of July 4 to exercise influential control over America, at the same time out of ignorance of American history, church history, the Bible, and Baptist heritage, ignoring intellectual honesty. One of the still famous last sayings of Falwell was the current signs of spiritual revival in this country becasue of Ted Haggard and the Evangelicals, Rich Warren and the Purpose Driven philosophy, and Tim LeHaye with his fiction based on fiction and the Scoffied Bible Notes. It is greatly significant that the same fundamentalists who have given us all the answers on eschatology by a distored of the 1,000 years, and all the answers on when to fight and not to fight in the SBC takeover, are the same fundamentalists with a emphasis of custom, tradition, and community over the Bible itself, instead of about the Bible, that are now leading in the De-Separation of Church and State.}

Even as the fundamentalists like Rich Warren would seek to blur in your mind the difference between real southern baptists and fundamentalists, so would they also like in the name of popularity and fortune like to confuse the differences between the American Democratic Faith of military men like John McCain and the Faith of the Bible and Christ, "the faith once for all delivered to the saints." We can believe in the social evolution of Spencer without believing in the physical evolution of Darwin; and while there has not been any evolution whatsoever in the truth of the Bible referenced in Jude 3 as the faith once for all delivered to the saints, there has been an evolution in the American Democratic Faith. For a complete description of the differences you should look at the PDF books offered on,, and; but we will look quickly at the three major differences: (1) the emphasis in the American Democratic faith is on the majority, the minority in the Bible and with Christ; (2) tolerance goes to the extreme, taking precedence over and dominating convictions, or at least watering down convictions and testimonies as you saw in the civic forum of Saddleback--this is the sad, big jump in removing the gap between church and state; and (3) while the focus of the American Democratic Faith, as it should be and as we appreciate it, is elimination of discrimination based on "sex, religion, and creed", the forbidden discrimination of the Bible and Christ is based on "clothing, status, and income". {And wearing flip-flops and colorful Hawaiian shirts, which are in keeping and appeal in popularity to the casual California style, will not cut it as they are the most expensive of that type just like wearing worn and torn jeans is no longer a sign of identification with the less than rich, when even obviously even 10% of his book sales have placed him in the Biblical category of the rich men, "who oppress you", and in spite of seeking some self-justification from the two Senators with a definition of rich.}

As citizens, and we must appreciate the contribution Rich Warren made to America on a beginning of clarification between faith and politics, we respect the American form of government and way of life which often in American Studies has been called the American Democratic Faith. We also appreciate the Christian Faith as recorded in the Bible, and as "once for all" was delivered to the saints through the writings of the Apostles and Prophets. However, we must appreciate the large gap that exist between them in spite of Warren’s efforts to find "common ground"; and the large gap that must continue to exist between them as we maintain the historical Separation of Church and State which is our Baptist heritage, also our American heritage. Once you allow, as we saw happening at the Saddleback Vatican, the State Faith of the American Democratic Faith to dominate over Christian Faith, you have just lost the ideology battle to separate the two.

You know, none of this is really new except by an unread and untrained generation. It has long been called "intellectual honesty" by Elton Trueblood and the Christian philosophy of relgion, even as "purpose" and "community" like Warren is championing is based on the Relgious Dimension of Personality of psychology and the Christian psychology of Wayne Oates. What is new in history is the Falling Away among Christians and churches, as well as the world wide rising tide of the mystery of lawlessness and sin, and popularity as a bad sign. This period in American history is not like during the popularity of Billy Graham, when we were not overcome by the "they will not endure sound doctrine" (II Timothy 4:3,4) of the Falling Away, or the vast and popular "heaping up" of Bible teachers and preachers of "itching ears", seeking to teach and preach something new or something that sounds new! You really don’t whether to blame Warren, the fundamenentalists relatives and teachers that made him, the people who support him at Saddleback or in the rest of the world, just like you can not tell for sure whether in II Timothy 4:3,4, it is the teachers and preachers that have itching ears of the church members, but probably both! In short, popularity in this time of the Falling Away is no longer a luxury that Pastors and Bible preachers of the Word of God can afford.

2008-08-20 17:06:19 GMT
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